Jump to content

Honoring Birth Siblings


Recommended Posts

:) What are things we can do to help our birthmother's other children deal with the adoption?  We know teenage years can be difficult especially when dealing with giving up a sibling for adoption.  We want them to know that the door is open for them as well as their mother but we do not want to force anything on them.  We hope that meeting us and hearing that we want to hear from them is enough but are there any other suggestions?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...
Guest MotherGoose(not logged in)

This seemed like a really good topic. We could use some help on this too. We would like to send things for the birthsiblings. But don't know how much she's told them? And, what is appropriate to send? When/how often, especially when we did not start doing it from the beginning? How do you open the door some time down the road without it seeming like an after thought?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

What about telling your child she has a sister or brother who wasn't placed for adoption? We don't have a lot of info on Jenna's birthfamily but know she has one full birth sibling and several half sisters and brothers. When is an appropriate time/age to breach this subject? Do they typically feel a lot of hurt knowing they were placed but the others weren't? If contact is made with a birth sibling, how do they (the siblings) usually respond?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Linda,

Hi! Our little Andrew has a birthsibling. He is way too young to know anything yet, but we have already introduced him. This summer when we finalized we spent time with our birthfamily. We were very fortunate to be able to make pictures at the Picture People with Andrew, his birthbrother, and his birthcousin. I have them up on the wall and every time we walk by I say who they are. We also have a picture on the mantle of the night before Andrew was born. It has Jimmy, our birthmother, her other son, and me, (and of course Andrew in-utero!) I just love this picture! I point this out as well.

What I am getting at is that I will not decide when he does need to know. He will just always know. I remember reading so much about waiting until the proper time to tell your child that he/she was adopted and it being too late. For us we want Andrew to grow up knowing he was adopted and that he has a wonderful birthfamily. My hope is that if we at least have that addressed we can move on to the other questions.

I know everyone has different situations. Good luck in whatever you decide!

Lisa V

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Catherine has a full-bio birth sister, who is just 15 mos. older than Catherine. I feel this is the primary reason Catherine was placed, because her then 17 yr old b/mom had dropped out of school to care for one toddler with no real family support. It makes me so sad that Catherine's b/mom did not want to continue contact (we spoke several times by phone after placement, but she told me not to call her anymore when Catherine was about 4 or 5 mos old...I suspect due to family pressure to sever contact.) I continued to mail cards, letters and pictures, which all went unanswered. Now I just submit my annual year end letter and pictures through Abrazo.

Whenever we talk about Catherine's b/family, I always refer to them as "your birthmother (name), your birthfather (name), and THEIR DAUGHTER (name.)" I just don't want to emphasize the "sister" connection right now. I know, I'm just avoiding the inevitable, but 6 yr olds can ask a lot of questions without having the ability to fully grasp the answer. If I told Catherine she has a sister, she would start asking "When can I see her? Can we invite her over to play? Can I go over to her house? Why doesn't she live with us? Let's get in the car and drive over to her house (500 miles???!!!) right now" and of course it would lead to the inevitable "Why did my birthmother keep her and not me" question.

Catherine has already asked the "Why didn't my birthmother want to keep me" question, and the fact that her birthmom was 17 and not married didn't really register with her. But my hopes and prayers are that one day, Catherine's b/mom will contact us, not for my benefit but for the benefit of Catherine and her sister (and any other siblings that have been or will be born).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grace Ann has several birthsiblings. We talked about them a lot when we are telling Grace Ann her birthstory. We have been doing this from day one, but we have a very open adoption. I can't say how I might go about explaining things if we did not have such a close relationship with our birthfamily.

Grace Ann loves her brothers and sisters. When they are around, you can forget us. They rank right up there with Dora in Grace Ann's eyes!! You can also tell the feeling is mutual(maybe not the Dora part!). Her siblings wait on her like she is royalty, which makes it so very hard for us after a visit!

I don't know how Grace Ann might feel in the future, hopefully she will be secure in the fact that she was placed and her siblings were not.

The teenage years are rough ones, so ask me this questions 10 years from now.

(Oh, my just ten more years!!!!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Many thanks to our families out there whose generosity and Christmas spirit enabled the little elves who work at Abrazo to spend much of this past work week mailing out more than (drum roll, please) 80 Christmas stockings and goodybags to those birthsibs and birthfamilies whose holidays most needed some brightening this year!! With contributions pouring in from Washington to Rhode Island (including more than 50 stockings from 4 Pennsylvania families who get together annually to help us out, phone cards from Tennessee and 7 loaded yuletide totes from a Forum friend with a soft spot for lonely birthmoms!) as well as kind cash donations from Missouri to North Carolina to Texas and plenty of places in between to offset postage and delivery costs, Santa's sleigh made some much-needed extra stops, impressing even his reindeer with your kindness, y'all... muchas gracias, amigos!

"...And I heard, o'er the rooftops, as Santa rode thru the night,

'Abrazo families ROCK! May their New Year shine bright!'"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

I was thinking this morning of my friend Tanya, whose son and daughter joined her last orientation, when she spoke on the panel about what it's like to place a baby for adoption. Midway through, her son was asked how he feels about having brothers who live with an adoptive family, and he bravely replied that he likes to see them for visits, then broke down in tears, admitting how much he misses them. We all choked back tears at that point, I think, recognizing the collateral loss this represented, and marvelling at the adoptive family's wisdom in honoring this relationship.

I think of a soon-to-be adoptive dad here on the Forum, who was an only child in his adoptive family, but regained the siblings he'd never had later in life, when he was reunited with his birthmom and her other children.

And I ache when I think of other children I know out there, who long to see the baby brothers or sisters they know they have, who were placed for adoption with families who do not (or cannot yet) understand the importance of adopted children maintaining access with their birthsiblings across the life span. For their birthmothers to have to manage their own grief while trying to account to their children for the adoptive parents' "right" to deny them access is an unfair burden, and I wish the agency could do more to help.

April, who used to work for Abrazo, told the story at orientation about how her son, then four, had asked her at bedtime when he would get to see his twin sisters who'd been placed for adoption with a famous basketball star and his wife. April, knowing the adoptive dad's fear of openness, hedged, saying "oh, someday." Her son then asked if his sisters had to brush their teeth each night like he did. April said she was sure they did. April's son then asked her to be sure to remind him to take his toothbrush when they went to see them. And April wept, knowing how many times her son would have to brush his teeth by himself before that day arrived.

My personal goal for the agency, in the year ahead, is to be more intentional in anticipating the needs of birthsiblings, and to try to develop more resources for birthparents left to tend to those needs on their own. Any ideas or input as to how we can help?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elizabeth and the rest of the Forum Family,

I want to let you know just how happy and blessed we are to have open relationships with both our birthfamilies and how I now envision (thanx to Mary's talk at camp) just how important and precious are those sibling relationships.

We have had the pleasure of seeing Nathan's birthfamily on a regular basis, sometimes as many as three times a year. Nathan and his birthsibling Leila have always just sort of "eyed" each other, as is typical of infants and young toddlers. I can not tell you how much fun it was to watch these two at Camp Abrazo last weekend. For the first time, Nathan and Leila played together, got into mischief together, and generally had a great time with each other. I cherish the future opportunities that these two will have in getting to know each other and I am very grateful that we have Nathan's birthparents who believe this is important as well.

We also had our first meeting with Mary Alice's birthsibling Kaison. He, being just two years old, did not have much interest in a 10 month old infant sister. He was more interested in the other toddlers present. I know, if we continue our planned life-long relationship with her birthfamily, Mary Alice will also know her birthsibling.

Thank you for your commitment to help adoptive families "keep the connection". I know that everyone involved will benefit and that our children will be blessed.

pkk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are matched with a birthmother who has several other children and we are hoping that we can, after placement, encourage a relationship between our adopted child and her birth siblings. We pray that the birthmom will continue to be open to the idea of them communicating with each other. It is one of our biggest fears, to lose contact with all of them. Elizabeth, do you have any ideas to encourage such a relationship? We would appreciate any advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not Elizabeth, but Grace Ann has several siblings.

We send her siblings birthday cards and we try to call them on their b-day as well.

Now that Grace Ann is getting more verbal she will talk to them when I call her birthparents. It is so funny to watch Grace Ann as she talks to them. She gets the biggest smile on her face as she tells each one of them "hello" and calls them by name. After she gets through talking to one they pass the phone to the next in line then sometimes they start all over again!

They love to hear their little Hispanic sister with a Southern accent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This one is near to my heart.

I have been able to witness, with my oldest daughter, how the openness we have with her birthmom and birthbrothers is so vital to Amanda's understanding of herself and her adoption. It has helped her cope with the painful realization that she was placed and her brothers were not. By her being able to know them, hug them, play with them and have a relationship, I do believe it goes a long way to healing her pain.

However, it is not the same with our youngest. She too has two birthsiblings, that are close to being adults by now. They do not know about Lexi. I knew at placement that her birthmom hid her pregnancy from her family. I also know because of that, she does not want an open relationship. I did not realize as clearly as I do now how much of an impact her decisions also affect our family and Lexi's understanding of her adoption. The most painful part for us is Lexi "being a secret". She is NOT a secret, she is the most wonderful daughter in the world. My hope is, one day soon, her birthfamily to know her as we do.

Karen

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Karen, your story of Lexi is similar to our son Josh -- so this topic is also near to my heart. Both of my son's have birthsiblings and no relationship with their birth families. My oldest son, Josh has 3 birthsiblings, that are adults now. They do not know about Josh. I knew at placement, that his birthmother hid her pregnancy from her family. Initially she wanted an open relationship, but because of the secret, there has been just about no contact in the past 6 years. Josh is a wonderful son and he is not a secret as well. I too hope that one day, Josh's birthfamily will get to know him as we do.

In Michael's situation, he has 3 birth siblings as well. His 3 half-sisters are have been placed with 2 other adoptive families. We have no contact with those 2 adoptive families, but wish that at some time, we can all get to know one another--enable the siblings to have a relationship and possibly be there for each other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anne,

I am hopeful for all the things you wish for!

I liked your post, under reconnecting, and your efforts on reaching out for those dear family members.

Keep us posted on your success in finding your children's family/siblings.

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I happened across what I think is a particularly good article about the importance of honoring sibling relationships in open adoption; here's the original link from adoption.about.com, followed by the text in case the link goes bad.

The Forgotten Children of Open Adoption

From Terri Enbourge

Under the current system, not only do adoptive parents create the rules when it comes to contact between the natural mother and her *placed child, they also make them regarding contact between her placed child and her raised children. After years of seeing and hearing disturbing reports about sibling relationships in Open Adoption being controlled solely by the whim or comfort level of adoptive parents at a given time, I have come to view the first mother's raised children as the forgotten children of open adoption. The plight of these kids remains virtually un-addressed in any meaningful way within the adoption community.

While resources abound to help adoptive parents regarding adoption-related discussion with non-adopted children in their families, there is nothing to aid a first mother/parent in talking about the subject to her raised children.

Yet, in the all-too-frequent occurrence of adoptive parents reneging on Contact Agreements or closing Open Adoptions, the grief of the mother’s raised children is as complex as the grief of their placed siblings.

The grief of an Open Adoption closing or remaining open under the arbitrary control and discretion of adoptive parents manifests beyond the relationship of those in the primary triad. Because a close (or seemingly close) relationship often develops between the adoptive and natural families in the early weeks, months, or years after placement has occurred, if the original mother already has children or goes on to have additional children, these kids are included in the extended familial relationship. When the openness ends, however long or short a period it has lasted, the mother’s raised child is left behind with a multitude of unanswered questions and a truckload of unresolvable grief.

The words, "left behind," may sound odd when, indeed, these siblings remain with their mothers. However, if they have been included in the extended family they were lead to believe was created by Open Adoption, they too suffer feelings of abandonment as their siblings and the additional people they perceived as family leave their lives.

In addition to a sense of abandonment, these kids suffer on a variety of other levels. They wonder if their sibling is being harmed. They wonder if their sibling still loves them. They wonder if they did something to cause the shutdown of contact. They struggle with questions from peers about the lost sibling. They become wary of attaching, fearing that another important person will vanish forever from their lives. They fear that they, too, could be permanently separated from their mothers. They feel a myriad of conflicting emotions including anger, envy, guilt, sadness, fear, rejection, hatred, love. Left without resources for resolving their grief, they bear the darkness of The Wall's shadow along with their mothers.

One first mother and her raised child had monthly visits with the older adopted child. The raised child and the placed child had a bonded relationship, and the adoptive parents frequently told the raised child that she was part of their "special extended family." However, when complete cutoff came with no explanation this little girl was bewildered, left to wonder why she couldn't see her brother anymore. Utterly confused, she wondered if it were somehow her fault and was left with great insecurity -- questioning how the people who once called her "family" disappeared without a word.

Another mother had such a close relationship with her placed child's adoptive family that she asked them to be the Godparents of her raised child. (They had shown great interest in taking the role.) However, even in this seemingly close relationship, all contact was eventually closed down in the wake of the adoptive parent’s divorce. Like other forgotten siblings, the raised child was left wondering in ways she could not yet fully articulate except to say, "sissy gone?"

Still, other siblings look forward to the promised visits, only to have them cancelled; to promised photos, only to wait in vain by the mailbox; and to promised calls, only to sit by the silent phone. They are left to answer awkward questions at their places of worship, "You said you had a brother. Why don't you talk about him anymore?" At school they are confused about the Study Unit on Family. "Is Ashley still part of our family tree even though we haven't seen her in six years?" And at home they ask, "will I ever see my brother again?" And we parents, discarding the word “birth” before our titles, try to give them hope.

Sometimes, though, we must sit with them and explain how some people do not keep their word. We tell them that it isn't their fault. We tell them that it is okay to cry, and we hope somewhere on the other side of The Wall someone is comforting our placed children in the same way. Yet we know it is more than a matter of keeping one's word and, as they are ready, we will tell our raised kids the rest of the story. Over time, we will explain that their sibling's parents share responsibility with a multitude of other people: ill-educated social workers, facilitators, agency personnel.

In the meantime, siblings whose contact with each other may not be fully cut off can suffer in other ways. When the openness of an adoption rests on the original mother’s meeting of arbitrary and unhealthy conditions set by adoptive parents, what do her children (both placed and raised) learn? Seeing one's mother diminished, watching her endure what often amounts to emotional blackmail, seeing her very motherhood undermined is akin to witnessing the dynamics of spousal abuse.

And when these kids are expected to join their mothers jumping through the hoops, crawling through random holes in The Wall in order to see their brothers for an hour or be allowed to simply send birthday cards, they are being asked to endure no less than emotional child abuse.

Often too young to comprehend what is at stake, to understand why we would even attempt to endure The Wall, our raised kids are left only to observe its effects. They see our tear-reddened eyes when another visit is cancelled at the eleventh hour. They see us shrink ever so slightly when introduced as "the birthmother." They see our changed posture as they accompany us on our mailbox vigils and our hunts for non-threatening cards or birthday gifts. Because kids are intuitive beings, not only do they see our pain, they feel it. In joining us -- even in watching us, our raised kids learn that if a relationship is important, submission and the endurance of emotional abuse is acceptable.

Our placed kids are watching, too, as we make our way through The Wall. And, as with any dysfunctional pattern, over time they can come to emulate what they have seen for years or decades. Sadly, they can begin to view unhealthy relational patterns as normal. They can come to see us only in the light The Wall and its keepers have allowed us to be viewed.

After her placed son had repeatedly used cruel, stereotypical descriptions about natural mothers during a family speaker-phone conversation, one such mother was jolted by the observation of her raised son: "You would never let me treat you like that." Realizing her son was right, she began to look for answers within the Open Adoption community. Finding none, she eventually found other mothers and children with similar experiences. Even as they began to find each other, these mothers saw with increasing clarity that they were on their own when it came to addressing adoption with their raised kids.

Recalls one such mom, "Everyone was talking about contact. Contact at all costs to the [original] family seemed to be an unspoken rule. I was also hearing a lot about commitment." She goes on, "Well, the mothers I knew were committed, but it didn't matter if the adoptive parents weren't. There was a lot of adoptively-correct talk, but nobody could really tell us where our [raised] kids stood in all of this."

Be sure to also check out Part II: Ambiguous Loss and Limbo Grief

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, that article makes me sad. As I read it, I wonder how much of that our son's birthfamily feels from us. (I have not asked permission from her to use names, so I won't here.)

When we adopted our son at birth he had a half sibling 17 months older than him. Now he has two more who are a several years younger. He is almost 12 now.

Although I don't believe we have made his birthmother jump through hoops to have "contact" with us since our adoption is completely open, it is the siblings I worry about.

His birthmother has told us that his older sibling asks about him frequently. Going through all the emotions listed in that article, sadness, anger, regret. She talks with her child beautifully about this but I'm sure it is extremely difficult on them both.

I am guilty of treating the younger two as "forgotten". I have met them, when they were too small to know who we were. I imagine we are like fairy tale people to them, not entirely real?? Because of that, we don't talk about them to our son as much as we do the older sibling.

While reading that article I felt an overwhelming sense, an "ah-hah" moment, that our adopted child is really only on loan to us. On loan from God, from the world, from his birthfamily. He is growing up, he is becoming his own self. He will not always define himself based on who his family is, as he does now at such a young age. One day, he will move about the world on his own, I won't get asked permission about his whereabouts, his friends, his clothing. I won't get asked permission on how he should feel, act towards, contact, spend time with, etc when it comes to friends and family. (Certainly I'll still have an opinion of course!!!)

Now is the time to influence what kind of man he will be. I pray that we are able to instill in him a love for his family, ALL of his family, so he will know that no matter where he goes, someone who loves him, will be there for him. That love extends beyond the borders of the titles we may have, Adoptive Mother/Father, Birthmother/sibling.

Now is the time to embrace those people and create relationships that will carry him on through his life.

So his birthfamily relationship... to me it closely resembles the relationship between cousins. There is a link there, there is love, a sense of belonging. But he doesn't live with them, like cousins!

The article has convinced me that I need to be more aware of their family as a whole.

Sharon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

even though I have a great relationship with my son & his Ap's, I fear this. Even if I truly believe they would never close that door to me nor my family/children I FEAR it. I try to put that out of my head, but never the less it creeps back in every now & then.

Darn society! It teaches us that the other shoe is going to drop, that nothing is permanent. It teaches us to be doubtful of our joy & the source of that joy. After all, adoptions are just us putting our faith in ours, and who are we to say they are trust worthy? Isn't that what society says everyday.

I feel for those out there, who have had that door close. I say bust out a window and climb through. What is the worst that could happen? Is that "worst" any worse than where you are with the door closed & no "date" of when it will open again? I think it can't be worse, there is nothing worse than not knowing.

I pray that all those invovled will find that window, or pry open that door. May the fear of what is lost be enough to find a way to open it again. Love hugs and prayers to you all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I can say is I have so much to say but don't know if I should right now. So I need to think about this and come back later. Elizabeth? Help? :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I can say is I have so much to say but don't know if I should right now. So I need to think about this and come back later. Elizabeth? Help? :unsure:

Tell it, Sister. Because your truth may set us all free. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok,that was all I needed. As most of you know I found my son on myspace awhile back. All I wanted was to see his face and know how he was doing. I never planned on contacting him,and "I" still haven't and won't. BUT my daughter's took it upon themselves to go behind my back(of course I showed them his myspace) and contact him themselves. They have had an ongoing"relationship "now for awhile. I was really scared at first and told Robin(she is the one who has the most contact with him) that she wasn't supposed to contact him that it was wrong(we talked about it when I showed them his myspace and it was understood that there was to be NO contact). Robin just looked at me and said "Why not? He's my little brother." She told me that to place him for adoption was my decision but nobody ever asked her and she chooses to talk to him. They are totally like two peas in a pod(they are only 14 months apart). They have the same interests and listen to the same music and they both play guitar and sing. But what I have learned most from this is that no matter what we as adults think is right or wrong children tend to bring out the "TRUE" right and wrong in all of us. My guilt for placing my son for adoption was very real and painful before but is even more now because I feel I have denied them this relationship they they now seem to cherish so much. I told Robin that I will have to contact his mother and tell her about this and that she needs to know. I have written the letter but have not yet sent it. I fear that this will end their relationship and things will be worse than before. But Robin has reassured me that no matter what we say they will stay in contact with each other and "We can't stop them". Apparently they are planning on trying to have a reunion to see each other. I am not sure how this is going to happen unless Charlie tells his parent's but they are talking about it. I am soooo happy that even if I can not have contact that my girl's do. I think it was great therapy for Robin(who was always kind of different from everybody in the family) to know that even though her brother is far away they still have this bond that nobody could sever and as far as she and Charlie are concerned nobody will be able to keep them apart anymore. Maybe we need to look more at what our children are trying to say to us and forget about what we as adults think is right for us. Listening to Robin talk about Charlie and how much they are alike makes me realize that their sibling bond is much stronger than I ever imagined. And who am I or anybody else to say that they have no right to be brother and sister? They never signed any papers saying they had no rights to be siblings. And my daughter has made it very clear to me(strong willed and determined that she is) that I WILL NOT take him away from her again. I think their attitudes speak much louder than anything I could ever say. Now lets just hope Charlie's mom feels the same when I tell her. :unsure:

Edited by Jada
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jada,

Is it possible that Charlie has already told his Mom about the open contact he has established with Robin? Would Charlie find support and encouragement from his Mom? I hope so.

This is exactly the type of real life stuff that alot of us, as parents, will be experiencing now and in the future.

It's the decision that we make as parents, birth and adoptive, that have a huge affect on our children, they let us know it, because we have taught them to be honest. Your right about children having built in sensors about what is right and wrong (too bad they don't listen to their own sensors before they themselves make bad choices :P ).

I bet it is healing for you to know that Robin and Charlie have a connection, one that you hope to share soon too.

My youngest daughters' birthmom cannot bring herself to tell her almost adult children about the placement she has kept hidden, for fear of...lots of things. She carries that weight around all by herself, day after day, year after year, knowing in her heart that her big kids would adore Alexis. I pray for the day to come, soon, where she can free herself of all the secrecy and not fear backlash from the very children she could not bring a new baby home to, a big factor in her decision to place. I have not met her other children but I already love them.

Jada, praying that everyone will open their hearts for your children.

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That love extends beyond the borders of the titles we may have, Adoptive Mother/Father, Birthmother/sibling.

Now is the time to embrace those people and create relationships that will carry him on through his life.

Hi Sharon,

Thanks for your honesty and recognizing it's never too late...

My daughter, Amanda, is 11 years old. In the beginning, when she was old enough to understand her adoption, she used to ask, "Why was I placed and not my brothers?" That question was hard to answer, age appropriately. I did the best I could with it. We have always had contact with her younger siblings and her birthmom. Amanda worries about her brothers, saving things for them for when we do see them. She feels the need to see them every so often to make sure they are okay, and we are more than happy to make that happen.

In the last few years she has dropped the "Why" in her question and now she says "I was placed and my brother were not." She has come to her own realizations and no longer feels "left out" in fact it has turned around, she now feels her brothers may feel "left out". She connects with them by letting them know she never forgets about them, even though she does not live with them.

It's a beautiful thing to witness!

Karen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jada,

I am sorry that you have found yourself in a uncomfortable position but I think you are doing the right thing by informing his mother what has been happening. I do feel that this will work out for the best. His mother maybe alittle upset/shocked at first but hopefully she realizes that he has been in contact with his sister for some time now and is handling it well. Sometimes it is so hard to take the first step but once it is done for you, you find that you really did not have anything to fear at all!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

How timely-- USA TODAY has a feature story on the growing numbers of families who adopt internationally and then begin to realize the importance of preserving their children's relationships with their bothers and sisters overseas: The Siblings They Left Behind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How timely-- USA TODAY has a feature story on the growing numbers of families who adopt internationally and then begin to realize the importance of preserving their children's relationships with their bothers and sisters overseas: The Siblings They Left Behind.

I feel this is so important. I hope Andrew has a relationship with his brother... Only time will tell.

L-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...